Kinda tired of this Hockenson was a stupid pick stuff...TE is hugely important...
I mean, thr top 2 TEs in the NFL were in the superbowl...best TE before this year, Gronk, look at the Pats before and after...some other playoff TEs Kittle Kelce Graham Cook Andrews Ertz Rudolph Witten
I dont think its any coincidence that the best teams have the best TEs, so can you please stop with this stupid pick nonsense....if he busts itll be a bad pick, but until then, it makes sense...
And how many of those TEs were picked in the first round let alone TOP TEN? (I'll give you a hint - it starts with "Z" and ends with "O".)
Bingo
And I will say it again, he looks like a little boy playing with grown men. I don't think he is tough enough to last in the NFL. He was getting hurt every other game there for a while. His blocking wasn't all that, stupid penalties, and he is soft!
I find it interesting how against you were Hockenson and a large part of it was lack of first year production from TE’s
I wouldn't say a large part of it was that (not to mention it wasn't just first year I was concerned about - most TEs take 3 seasons to develop). That was probably 4th or 5th on the list or reasons why I hated the pick.
I agree that a healthy Williams wouldn't have made much of an impact as a rookie with the Lions. But I also doubt they would have won less games had they taken him.
And how many of those TEs were picked in the first round let alone TOP TEN? (I'll give you a hint - it starts with "Z" and ends with "O".)
Bingo
And I will say it again, he looks like a little boy playing with grown men. I don't think he is tough enough to last in the NFL. He was getting hurt every other game there for a while. His blocking wasn't all that, stupid penalties, and he is soft!
Bingo?
It doesnt matter where they were drafted...if you get a top 5 guy with a top 10 pick, youre pretty happy id say....they got those guys later, good for them, didnt mean they were top 5 guys because of draft position...thats actually a really dumb/lazy argument....the draft position only matters if he doesnt lives up to it, thats all that matters...
Post by badnews3123 on Feb 12, 2020 7:11:38 GMT -6
It’s also flawed because for every Kelce or Kittle drafted in mid-rounds there’s a ton of mid round TE’s that flopped. It’s the old just take a day 3 RB because of Philip Lindsay or Chris Carson. Yes, guys can be found later, but the odds that teams will pass over a good talent that many times and you get him are slim. Odds are you’re getting Michael Roberts or Aaron Brown.
It doesnt matter where they were drafted...if you get a top 5 guy with a top 10 pick, youre pretty happy id say....they got those guys later, good for them, didnt mean they were top 5 guys because of draft position...thats actually a really dumb/lazy argument....the draft position only matters if he doesnt lives up to it, thats all that matters...
It’s also flawed because for every Kelce or Kittle drafted in mid-rounds there’s a ton of mid round TE’s that flopped. It’s the old just take a day 3 RB because of Philip Lindsay or Chris Carson. Yes, guys can be found later, but the odds that teams will pass over a good talent that many times and you get him are slim. Odds are you’re getting Michael Roberts or Aaron Brown.
Build your board and trust it.
I get where you're coming from and I agree with the idea that if you draft a good player, it doesn't matter where you drafted him, but I like to look at the overall picture and history has proven TE is VERY rarely a good value in the first round, let alone top 10. Sure, if Hockenson ends up being the next Tony Gonzalez, great, they nailed it. But what are the chances of that happening? The most likely scenario is he ends up being a Dallas Clark or Todd Heap type player. That is nice, but would you be satisfied with that? Sure, I wouldn't call it a bust, but at #8 they could have potentially gotten a much bigger impact player in a position of need and still had a chance at a TE with a similar career in the 2nd or 3rd round.
Just look at all the TEs taken in the first round in the last 40 years. There are literally TWO that truly lived up to their draft position (Gonzalez and Olsen - and Olsen was taken 31st and didn't even see success until he left the team that drafted him).
Last Edit: Feb 12, 2020 10:03:06 GMT -6 by Blaming Brad
Post by badnews3123 on Feb 12, 2020 10:14:21 GMT -6
I get what you’re saying but those are the type of things that have teams pass on Aaron Donald and Grady Jarrett and why teams reach for marginal QB’s prospects. I get positional value and draft history, but to me teams start paying too much attention to that and they start over-thinking it and getting yourself in trouble.
The whole “top 10” thing is relative to the draft. You have to look at how he compares to his draft class when talking about it. We’ll see in a couple years.
I get positional value and draft history, but to me teams start paying too much attention to that and they start over-thinking it and getting yourself in trouble.
I agree but I also think taking a guy like Hockenson at #8 is over-thinking and getting yourself in trouble.
Post by badnews3123 on Feb 12, 2020 11:55:59 GMT -6
Or passing on him to take an athletically gifted OT that looked like a sure thing like the same team that drafted him did, because I’m sure they couldn’t take an undersized DT at #2 and sell it.
Well, the game has changed and so has the TE position over the past 40 yrs...the modern game, say the past 5-8 yrs it seems the TE is much more of an impact...
And like i said, time will tell if it was a bad pick, but he lives up to the hype, itll be a great pick...
Post by badnews3123 on Feb 12, 2020 13:06:57 GMT -6
Dallas Clark is a tough example because he had a long career but a 3 year peak when he was as good as any TE in the league and an All-Pro. Outside that window he was average maybe a little above.
If he has something along the lines of Olsen or Ertz, I can’t imagine anyone will be complaining.
Post by Blaming Brad on Feb 12, 2020 14:14:39 GMT -6
I think we would complain about Olsen if he followed that same career trajectory as he did very little until his 6th year when he was long gone from the team that drafted him.
Dallas Clark, what a stud. He was 6 deep as a LB on Iowa's team. He spent a lot of time playing around with Iowa's backup QB's catching passes, one day Ferentz noticed. He told him to report to the TE coach. The rest is history. In his first season he played in 15 games and had 43 catches for 515 yards. Dallas Clark? Nope, George Kittle. Hock played injured and then was re-injured, 32 catches for 367 yards. Not a big difference per game. Very few TE's have an impact in their first year. Hock looked like he might when he had over 130 yards right off the bat vs Zona, but sometimes I think they screw themselves by not going back to him when they should have. It was a reach, it would have been unnecessary had they taken Andrews in the 3rd the year before. But here we are.
Hock looked like he might when he had over 130 yards right off the bat vs Zona
We also would later learn that Arizona would go on to have a historically bad defense against TEs in 2019. They gave up 96 receptions, 1,148 yards and 16 TDs to TEs.
I think we would complain about Olsen if he followed that same career trajectory as he did very little until his 6th year when he was long gone from the team that drafted him.
No, I would ask why he had 8 TD's in his third season with 60 receptions, (his most TD's in any season BTW), and only had 41 receptions the very next season under Martz. The Bears screwed up big time and lots of Bears fans were pissed, rightfully so, when Martz told the Bears there was no room for him in his O and they traded him for a 3rd to Carolina. Why do people assume it's the player who is to blame when their numbers aren't what novice onlookers assume they should be? He was doing just fine until Martz came on board. When you join a new team, new OC, and then it takes a couple years to "ramp up", I would say it wasn't the player, it was an O that didn't do enough to feature him. They do now, and have for several years. My question isn't why did it take Olsen so long to catch on, my question is how much better his career stats would have been had he been in the right O from day 1.
No, I would ask why he had 8 TD's in his third season with 60 receptions, (his most TD's in any season BTW), and only had 41 receptions the very next season under Martz. The Bears screwed up big time and lots of Bears fans were pissed, rightfully so, when Martz told the Bears there was no room for him in his O and they traded him for a 3rd to Carolina. Why do people assume it's the player who is to blame when their numbers aren't what novice onlookers assume they should be? He was doing just fine until Martz came on board. When you join a new team, new OC, and then it takes a couple years to "ramp up", I would say it wasn't the player, it was an O that didn't do enough to feature him. They do now, and have for several years. My question isn't why did it take Olsen so long to catch on, my question is how much better his career stats would have been had he been in the right O from day 1.
I don't disagree. But I would also say the Lions are no different than the Bears in that they don't know how to utilize players and there will likely be multiple regimes through Hockenson's rookie contract. So even if he is as good as advertised, we may never see it with the Lions, just like the Bears never saw it with Olsen.
I think we would complain about Olsen if he followed that same career trajectory as he did very little until his 6th year when he was long gone from the team that drafted him.
I feel like you’re ignoring some factors in Chicago that contributed to the lower numbers. There’s a reason once Cam took that stride in year 2 and 3 that suddenly Olsen’s numbers drastically improved. I don’t think the lightbulb just turned on with Olsen.
Agreed, Tomlinson to some extent and certainly Van Noy are examples of why Quinn should be gone. Throw in a slow, injured CB also in the second, a LB in the second that was a reach once again no matter who was evaluating him, and here we are, 3 players gone and one who showed squat. Oh and making trades to move up to "grab" players who slipped like sand thru our fingers to play elsewhere on teams that are contenders. I'm not sure that w/o a legitimate TE opposite Hock that they can run the O they thought they would have, playing the 12. Another huge mistake paying James like he's all that, he isn't. These guys are floundering and it may very well effect what kind of career Hock ends up with, I don't know how it couldn't.
Post by goldenlions on Feb 13, 2020 0:33:56 GMT -6
I wish people would stop with Kittle. The guy was mediocre as a receiver at Iowa. He could be the Tom Brady of TEs if his career trajectory continues. But coming out of college he was what he was, a 6th round TE.
I wish people would stop with Kittle. The guy was mediocre as a receiver at Iowa. He could be the Tom Brady of TEs if his career trajectory continues. But coming out of college he was what he was, a 6th round TE.
Exactly how a dumb fuck would characterize Kittle at Iowa. Iowa fans aren't surprised at all about how he's done in the pro's, his time at Iowa showed plenty. Mike Mayock had him as the 5th best TE, 6th best by Gil Brandt and 8th best by Draft Scout. That puts most TE's in the 3rd or 4th round. He was taken in the 5th even after his combine which showed plenty. A 4.52 forty, was 3rd among TE's in the broad jump and was 6th in the vertical. Blocking skills were more than obvious and the OC at Iowa, Greg Davis, was given the choice to retire or be fired because of his 2016 campaign that was Kittle's senior season.
Exactly how a dumb fuck would characterize Kittle at Iowa. Iowa fans aren't surprised at all about how he's done in the pro's, his time at Iowa showed plenty. Mike Mayock had him as the 5th best TE, 6th best by Gil Brandt and 8th best by Draft Scout. That puts most TE's in the 3rd or 4th round. He was taken in the 5th even after his combine which showed plenty. A 4.52 forty, was 3rd among TE's in the broad jump and was 6th in the vertical. Blocking skills were more than obvious and the OC at Iowa, Greg Davis, was given the choice to retire or be fired because of his 2016 campaign that was Kittle's senior season.
Yeah Dane, we get it, you blow every TE from Iowa.
But you're being revisionist if anyone saw anything more than a 3rd day project out of this guy.
Last Edit: Feb 14, 2020 0:18:14 GMT -6 by goldenlions