“P.S. Might be time to trade him to a team asking him to play outside only. I think a 2nd rounder would do nicely”
Or sign one of the best slot CB’s in the league in free agency.
Now you are being silly Badnews, I will spell it out for you. Why would the Lions ask Slay, who is a very effective outside left corner to play in the slot? Answer: They would not! However, Patricia loves to mix his man and zone pass coverage throughout the game. I believe I read he mixed man or zone coverage about equally when he was with New England. Since Slay is our best CB he would man up on the opponents Number 1 WR. Over time using different routes against Slay OCs have figured out that Slay is not as competent playing from the slot. So when the opponents QB recognizes man coverage it is easy to audible the Number 1 WR to change his route to be run from the slot, thus making Slay defend the slot position.
In this real world situation described above, How does signing the best slot CB help Slay when in man coverage from the slot? Answer: It does not!
Last Edit: Jun 7, 2019 0:42:54 GMT -6 by liongeezer
Because last year the Lions had jack shit in the slot and that forced Slay to shadow. Now if you have competent CB’s along side him than you’re not asking him to do that anymore.
Because last year the Lions had jack shit in the slot and that forced Slay to shadow. Now if you have competent CB’s along side him than you’re not asking him to do that anymore.
Really, so in your scenario, an OC could line up his #1 WR in the slot to go against Justin Coleman repeatedly during a game. Sounds like a mismatch and Coleman is not paid to cover the opponents #1, Slay is. If Slay can't shadow his opponent all over the field he is not a true shut down corner and does not deserve to be paid in the top 5 or 10 CBs in the league. He is 28 years old and may have lost a step by now. For the Lions to pay big money for basically an older, one dimensional (outside only), CB who can't shadow would be a big mistake. Slay should be quiet, get his ass in camp, put his nose to the grindstone, and work on becoming a CB that can cover from all areas of the field.
P.S. Glover Quin did not show up for OTAs and Mandatory mini camps last year and then we watched his performance on the field basically fall off a cliff. These players need these spring workouts and techniques training to maintain their skill level. Slay missing the spring practice does not bode well for his Lions future. He has been payed his guaranteed money. Now if he wants the rest of it, he needs to show he can maintain an All Pro skill level for the next 2 years.
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2019 2:26:30 GMT -6 by liongeezer
Geezer you’re way overthinking this. Not every CB shadows, actually very few do. Coleman is one of the best slot CB’s in football, if they want to put their “#1” in the slot, I’m sure the Lions feel comfortable with that in most match-ups. Hence why they paid him well. I don’t care how many times you say it either, OC’s are not going to just put their #1 in the slot for entire games to avoid Slay. Most teams have slot WR’s and not every WR will be as effective in the slot.
Also Glover Quin is retired now and there were questions about that when he missed time last season. I highly doubt OTA’s is why he suddenly lost a step and retired. He’s also stated himself that he asked for release because he didn’t fit well in the system.
Last Edit: Jun 8, 2019 7:43:35 GMT -6 by badnews3123
Geezer you’re way overthinking this. Not every CB shadows, actually very few do. Coleman is one of the best slot CB’s in football, if they want to put their “#1” in the slot, I’m sure the Lions feel comfortable with that in most match-ups. Hence why they paid him well. I don’t care how many times you say it either, OC’s are not going to just put their #1 in the slot for entire games to avoid Slay. Most teams have slot WR’s and not every WR will be as effective in the slot.
Also Glover Quin is retired now and there were questions about that when he missed time last season. I highly doubt OTA’s is why he suddenly lost a step and retired. He’s also stated himself that he asked for release because he didn’t fit well in the system.
That is the Badnews I know and love. If you can't argue with facts you dismiss it with, as in this case, the proverbial "overthinking" label. You always do that Badnews, when you get painted into the corner you try to impress with big words and tell me I just don't understand. So in your opinion, I am not properly weighing the facts or I am over-analyzing details, huh. LOL...DCs put their best CB man on man against the opponents #1 WR all the time, especially Patricia when he strategically employed Stephen Gilmore against certain opponents during his NE days. It is only logical that he would try this strategy with Slay. Patricia is all about is versatility for all players and Slay did not shadow very well from the slot as describe by the article above. Slay needs to learn coverage from the slot position to be more effective as a CB in Patricia's defense and he can't do that sitting at home crying about guaranteed money or how much someone else is getting paid.
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2019 2:08:22 GMT -6 by liongeezer
Ok, Geezer. I’m glad I have you to explain football strategy to me. Every team is just going to line up their #1 in the slot to match Slay up there. And no chance they’ll have Coleman take on that job. And Gilmore doesn’t consistently shadow 1’s. He does at times, like most top CB’s, but not all the time. Which is also true of Slay, as you’re up in arms about his grade, which was based on 18 total targets.
Ok, Geezer. I’m glad I have you to explain football strategy to me. Every team is just going to line up their #1 in the slot to match Slay up there. And no chance they’ll have Coleman take on that job. And Gilmore doesn’t consistently shadow 1’s. He does at times, like most top CB’s, but not all the time. Which is also true of Slay, as you’re up in arms about his grade, which was based on 18 total targets.
So after you use dismissal, now your making flippant comments and exaggerations . Please present valid points in your argument, I have seen you do it a million times over the years.
Ok, Geezer. I’m glad I have you to explain football strategy to me. Every team is just going to line up their #1 in the slot to match Slay up there. And no chance they’ll have Coleman take on that job. And Gilmore doesn’t consistently shadow 1’s. He does at times, like most top CB’s, but not all the time. Which is also true of Slay, as you’re up in arms about his grade, which was based on 18 total targets.
So after you use dismissal, now your making flippant comments and exaggerations . Please present valid points in your argument, I have seen you do it a million times over the years.
I don’t even know what you’re talking about anymore, you’re at the point that you stop making sense. Took longer than normal at least.
Slay played 108 snaps in the slot according to be PFF’s data(the charting is what I trust). That’s 12% of the snaps he played last season. If he was that horrible in the slot and was solely shadowing guys then why didn’t teams try to exploit it more last season, Geezer? The film and “data” was there.
My guess. If you look at data, Slay had a couple rough games covering someone in the slot, I’d guess a big chunk of it was in red zone. Of course this all banking on PFF’s grading being accurate, which is a different discussion.
The Lions went out and signed one of the best slot CB’s in the league this offseason and paid him well. If you think they did that so Slay can shadow to the slot for a significant % of snaps, I think you’re highly misguided. Which goes to your shadow comment. No CB shadows game in and game out, not in a Patricia defense or any other. Gilmore didn’t and Slay didn’t last season. Top CB’s will at times, like both Gilmore and Slay, but not full time. They will do it even less when you build a strong secondary which the Lions seem clearly invested in doing.
Rosenhaus is the agent for both Slay and Snacks, both have similar deals and he is using it as leverage being he has convinced both the guys to hold out to make a power play with Detroit.
Shitty situations if you are the Lions, you need both these guys.
His great tackling and overall impressive instincts help him in run defense as well. Slay is great at helping set the edge to contain run inside. When he sees a chance, he can quickly fly into the backfield and make a tackle to hold the runner for minimal gain.
Slay is set to be one of the highest-paid corners in the NFL in 2019, but at age 28 with no guaranteed money left on his deal, he is looking for long-term security.
While a new contract will cost Detroit a lot, if they will not pay Slay, who are they saving money for?
Not a single player that hit free agency last March was anywhere near the talent that Slay is. Elite corners—which Slay is—rarely ever hit the free agent market, and if Detroit plans to trade for a different elite corner, they would end up having to pay them anyways.
It is hard to find a long-term starting corner that can instantly start in the draft. Teez Tabor, Detroit’s 2017 second-round pick, still has not been the guy the Lions thought he was going to be when they selected him out of Florida.
Not giving Slay a new deal means that they will need to find a replacement for Slay. That is a tough task for a team whose second best corner over the past five years was Nevin Lawson—a player the Lions are still looking to adequately replace.
Giving a 28-year-old player a huge new contract is a risk. Giving a player who still has two years left on his deal an extension is a risk.
But when you are one of the least successful franchises in NFL—and maybe North American sports history—you are eventually going to have to take risks to lose that title.
So after you use dismissal, now your making flippant comments and exaggerations . Please present valid points in your argument, I have seen you do it a million times over the years.
I don’t even know what you’re talking about anymore, you’re at the point that you stop making sense. Took longer than normal at least.
The above demeaning comments are not needed Badnews. The rest of this post is well thought out with logical, intelligent points presented.
Slay played 108 snaps in the slot according to be PFF’s data(the charting is what I trust). That’s 12% of the snaps he played last season. If he was that horrible in the slot and was solely shadowing guys then why didn’t teams try to exploit it more last season, Geezer? The film and “data” was there.
My guess. If you look at data, Slay had a couple rough games covering someone in the slot, I’d guess a big chunk of it was in red zone. Of course this all banking on PFF’s grading being accurate, which is a different discussion.
I don't care about the PFF's grade! However, I agree that PFF's charting should be accurate accurate and of course the results (higher percentage of catches/target, 1st downs, and TDs defending the slot). Most of Slay's stats from the slot are probably from 2 to 4 games where an individual receiver from those teams was deemed too difficult for the other Lion's CBs.
The Lions went out and signed one of the best slot CB’s in the league this offseason and paid him well. If you think they did that so Slay can shadow to the slot for a significant % of snaps, I think you’re highly misguided.
Do you really think I am that stupid or naive? Stop throwing insults. Coleman is being paid to cover what is considered the Number 3 slot WR and Slay is being paid to take on the Number 1 WR or whoever Patricia deems necessary for Slay's attention. Thus the 4 million dollars/year difference in salary.
Which goes to your shadow comment. No CB shadows game in and game out, not in a Patricia defense or any other. Gilmore didn’t and Slay didn’t last season. Top CB’s will at times, like both Gilmore and Slay, but not full time. They will do it even less when you build a strong secondary which the Lions seem clearly invested in doing.
Patricia will ask him to shadow again this season against certain WRs and he will not get practice for that staying at home. Slay still needs to get in camp and work on techniques for defending the slot position. So back to my point, he is already being paid commensurate with his ability. If he wants top 5 pay and guaranteed money from another contract, he needs to prove he will work to increase his ability from the slot and become a complete shut down CB.
Post by badnews3123 on Jun 12, 2019 11:08:36 GMT -6
Geezer you have to be thinnest skinned motherfucker alive. If that was demeaning, than I’m sure I can go back in this thread and find something demeaning you said. Stop being a pussy. That’s actually demeaning.
As for the rest of your post. My entire point was that they signed Coleman because they were one of the worst performing teams in the league out of the slot, PFF would tell you that includes Slay, though a small percentage. They didn’t sign him to toss him out of the slot anytime a “#1 WR” gets out in the slot. And OC’s won’t just do it all the time like you tried to claim at the beginning anyway.
In one paragraph you say Slay is paid to cover #1’s and Coleman #3 slot guys(which is false, that guy could be 1, 2, 3, 4 or TE1 at times), then you go on to say Patricia will ask him to shadow “at times”. So which is it?
Yes, Slay will shadow “at times”, like I’ve said multiple times. Like he did last season, but it will be needed less, especially against top slot guys because of the addition of Coleman. That was my entire point from the beginning.
As for missing camp. I honestly don’t care. If he’s not here for training camp I’ll be more concerned.
Last Edit: Jun 12, 2019 11:09:30 GMT -6 by badnews3123
Post by badnews3123 on Jun 12, 2019 12:04:09 GMT -6
I’m not saying run out and give either a guy a bunch of money, but for the 2 years left thing. I think there’s been 2 or 3 guys in the last couple days that I’ve seen given deals with 2 years left.
There’s likely a middle ground that both sides can be happy with.