Not a troll thread nor hot take

[rustyhilger]

Completely honest opinion. Realize this will be unpopular but not just saying it to stir the pot.

But Scott Mitchel, in my opinion, is mostly right.

There were more complete backs. Case in point: The two RBs we have on the roster right nows. Montgomery is capable of consistently moving the chains, generating momentum, etc. And one of the key reasons our coach and the entire offense are so confident and bold about going for it on 4th and short. Gibbs is a legit homerun threat, but also isn't a liability in that area. 

The amount of runs for negative yardage and the difficult 3rd and long situations ... were detrimental. He wasn't capable of moving the chains consistently on his own. He was a home run or a strike out. No in-between. His home runs just happened to be E-P-I-C. 

But I feel for Mitchel. He wasn't Johnnie Unitas but he wasn't the sole reason we weren't a championship team. Barry was the center of the offense, and he bore as much responsibility. I largely blame that also on the prevailing mentality of that era. Running backs should never be the center of your offense, no matter how good. Barry was best suited as the "lightning" half of a backfield-by-committee. Unfortunately, he played during a time when RBBC wasn't standard practice, and that hurt the team immensely.

www.mlive.com/lions/2023/11/bleep-you-all-ex-lions-qb-scott-mitchell-rips-barry-sanders-documentary.html

“In his 10-year career he won one playoff game and the only reason he didn’t win more was everyone else was the problem? How many yards did Barry have in the playoffs in ‘94, ‘95, ‘97? I’ll give you a hint not very many. We all are to blame for not winning a (Super Bowl) in Detroit even Barry Sanders."

[Blaming Brad]

Funny, I was just having this discussion with some folks. I don't completely disagree with Mitchell either, although I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I've always said Barry was the most exciting back to watch in the history of the NFL. But if you want a consistent championship caliber team, he's not your guy. I bet in today's NFL he would be a more complementary piece (basically what Rusty alluded to).

That said, Mitchell was not a very good quarterback, but he was far from the only problem at the time.

[Blaming Brad]

So just finished the Bye Bye Barry doc. I pretty much learned nothing from it that I didn't already know. We already knew his dad was an asshole. We already knew the reason he retired. I still want to know why he waited until July to announce it when he all but admitted he knew he was done in the middle of his last season. And the stuff Scott Mitchell was bitching about? It was like 2 minutes of Fontes telling Barry he pushed for Joe Montana and Warren Moon but Chuck Schmidt said they were too old.

I feel completely swindled. The Football Life special on him was much better and pretty much covered the same material, only better.

[TRUMP]

i dont like that Barry stopped short of records when he had the chance. kind of shows he lacks the killer instinct to be the best. kind of a red flag to me.although he dad was a prick and kept burning into Barrys head that he was never gonna be better than Jim Brown or even his dad.

[Vic]

I have no interest in watching this in all honesty

I am enjoying Lions football this season and do not want to relive how this franchise fell short in the past and chased away good players.

I read about players listing Detroit and a landing spot, there was that LB released from the Colts and he said would sign here... that is refreshing. Hats off to the Ford Firestone Ladies who have turned this around!

[TechLion]

Barry was the most entertaining football player of all time however the math says he actually did almost as much harm as he did good over a complete season. Football is a game of percentages and when a RB is held for no gain or caught in the backfield, it puts the offense in a low percentage situation of getting a first down. Barry got caught in the back field so many times that it resulted in far too many punts. Sure his big runs won a bunch of games and gave him unreal stats but his high amount of small gains and losses resulted in the Lions losing a bunch of games. I wouldn't trade the Barry experience for nothing but Scott Mitchel is 100% right.

[icouldblion]

I finally got around to watching the doc. You all (and Scott Mitchell) must've seen a different documentary than I did, because I didn't hear Scott Mitchell's name mentioned one time in the entire 93 minutes. It sounds to me like Mitchell still harbors a lot of self doubt about his own performances with the Lions and is providing his own speculation/projecting his own insecurity into this discussion. To have such a volatile reaction where he was never even mentioned says way more about Mitchell than this documentary did.

As far as Barry being as much to blame for the losing, and criticizing all the lost yardage...you must've been watching a different Lions team than I was. Barry constantly faced eight man boxes because there was rarely a balanced attack offered by the Lions. The inability to land even an average QB during his career meant he had to make 2 to 3 guys miss every time he touched the ball to gain any positive yardage. Peete/Kramer/Ware/Mitchell were all journeymen at best. The one season Mitchell actually performed well (1995), and they went to the playoffs, he threw 4 picks in the first half including a pick 6 on the way to a 38-7 halftime deficit. It was honestly the worst half of football I have ever witnessed from a QB. To say Barry would be unable to "move the chains" in a balanced offensive attack is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

[Blaming Brad]

Nov 24, 2023 16:31:41 GMT -6 TechLion said:

I wouldn't trade the Barry experience for nothing

Of course you would. Maybe a Superbowl?

Nov 24, 2023 16:31:41 GMT -6 TechLion said:

but Scott Mitchel is 100% right

Mitchell's a buffoon. He was always delusional about his own talent as a QB. I remember when he left the Lions to go to the Ravens and people questioned whether he could succeed there without Herman Moore and he said he was the reason Herman Moore and Johnny Morton were so successful. That said, as I said above (as usual making your point days before you do) Mitchell is not totally wrong about Barry.

[TechLion]

Nov 24, 2023 19:39:19 GMT -6 Blaming Brad said:

Nov 24, 2023 16:31:41 GMT -6 TechLion said:

I wouldn't trade the Barry experience for nothing

Of course you would. Maybe a Superbowl?

Nov 24, 2023 16:31:41 GMT -6 TechLion said:

but Scott Mitchel is 100% right

Mitchell's a buffoon. He was always delusional about his own talent as a QB. I remember when he left the Lions to go to the Ravens and people questioned whether he could succeed there without Herman Moore and said he was the reason Herman Moore and Johnny Morton were so successful. That said, as I said above (as usual making your point days before you do) Mitchell is not totally wrong about Barry.

A decade of Barry or one super bowl, I would take Barry. Scott Mitchel had one of the best touch passes, I've ever seen. Herman Moore and Mitchel were made for each other. Herman Moore went from catching over 1200 yards per year with Mitchel to having mediocre stats with out him.

[Felix]

Nov 24, 2023 21:14:46 GMT -6 TechLion said:

Nov 24, 2023 19:39:19 GMT -6 Blaming Brad said:

Of course you would. Maybe a Superbowl?

Mitchell's a buffoon. He was always delusional about his own talent as a QB. I remember when he left the Lions to go to the Ravens and people questioned whether he could succeed there without Herman Moore and said he was the reason Herman Moore and Johnny Morton were so successful. That said, as I said above (as usual making your point days before you do) Mitchell is not totally wrong about Barry.

A decade of Barry or one super bowl, I would take Barry. Scott Mitchel had one of the best touch passes, I've ever seen. Herman Moore and Mitchel were made for each other. Herman Moore went from catching over 1200 yards per year with Mitchel to having mediocre stats with out him.

Bullshit...we had the best lions qb ever for a decade and everyone hated him...rams traded 5 or so years for him and not 1 complaint with that for a SB victory. I'm sure all of us would trade everything for a SB victory


While I agree it's nice to point at Barry and Megatron as lions fans' ...their achievements are a weak consolation prize to a championship

[liongeezer]

Scott Mitchell was DOG SHIT! Take out his 1995 year where he threw 32 TDs against 12 Ints, with 92.3 rating.   In the other 4 years; he Threw 47 TDs against 45 Ints, with 68.4 rating. The Lions paid Mitchell like a superstar.  Here is the kicker, defenses constantly stacked 8 in the box against Barry.  He would normally have to beat 1 to 2 unblocked tacklers on every play.  Mitchell could not take advantage of it even though he had Herman Moore (the best "contested catch" receiver ever).

[TechLion]

Nov 24, 2023 21:54:34 GMT -6 Felix said:

Nov 24, 2023 21:14:46 GMT -6 TechLion said:

A decade of Barry or one super bowl, I would take Barry. Scott Mitchel had one of the best touch passes, I've ever seen. Herman Moore and Mitchel were made for each other. Herman Moore went from catching over 1200 yards per year with Mitchel to having mediocre stats with out him.

Bullshit...we had the best lions qb ever for a decade and everyone hated him...rams traded 5 or so years for him and not 1 complaint with that for a SB victory. I'm sure all of us would trade everything for a SB victory


While I agree it's nice to point at Barry and Megatron as lions fans' ...their achievements are a weak consolation prize to a championship

Stafford was a cap killer and having him on the team made it next to impossible to field an elite team. He never lived up to how much money he made. Joey Harrington let alone Goff could have led the Rams to a super bowl that year. Goff won 13 games with the Rams and went to the Super Bowl. Stafford's contract didn't hurt the Rams his first year because the team was already in place, now they are fucked for a very long time. Just wait, the Rams fans will be bitching soon, it's only been a couple of years.

10 years of pure enjoyment watching the most entraining players in history on your team or winning one super bowl? It's like have sex with a super model one time or having sex with a really hot women all the time.

[TechLion]

Nov 25, 2023 3:35:18 GMT -6 liongeezer said:

Scott Mitchell was DOG SHIT! Take out his 1995 year where he threw 32 TDs against 12 Ints, with 92.3 rating.   In the other 4 years; he Threw 47 TDs against 45 Ints, with 68.4 rating. The Lions paid Mitchell like a superstar.  Here is the kicker, defenses constantly stacked 8 in the box against Barry.  He would normally have to beat 1 to 2 unblocked tacklers on every play.  Mitchell could not take advantage of it even though he had Herman Moore (the best "contested catch" receiver ever).

Barry getting caught in the backfield so many times, wasn't Mitchel's fault. Barry is the one who put Mitchel in a terrible position to complete long third down passes. Point is that it was not one players fault! Everyone is to blame, including the coaches for not demanding that Barry run to his holes consistently. Barry was able to get away with dancing in the backfield but he would get crushed in todays NFL unless he changed his game.

[Blaming Brad]

Nov 25, 2023 6:36:36 GMT -6 TechLion said:

Stafford was a cap killer and having him on the team made it next to impossible to field an elite team. He never lived up to how much money he made.

The question is, did they learn their lesson or will they repeat history by extending Goff?

[Felix]

Bullshit again...they were on the verge and needed to keep the team together, but Suh leaving then coaching changes, etc was the end of that

[liongeezer]

Nov 25, 2023 6:43:15 GMT -6 TechLion said:

Nov 25, 2023 3:35:18 GMT -6 liongeezer said:

Scott Mitchell was DOG SHIT! Take out his 1995 year where he threw 32 TDs against 12 Ints, with 92.3 rating.   In the other 4 years; he Threw 47 TDs against 45 Ints, with 68.4 rating. The Lions paid Mitchell like a superstar.  Here is the kicker, defenses constantly stacked 8 in the box against Barry.  He would normally have to beat 1 to 2 unblocked tacklers on every play.  Mitchell could not take advantage of it even though he had Herman Moore (the best "contested catch" receiver ever).

Barry getting caught in the backfield so many times, wasn't Mitchel's fault. Barry is the one who put Mitchel in a terrible position to complete long third down passes. Point is that it was not one players fault! Everyone is to blame, including the coaches for not demanding that Barry run to his holes consistently. Barry was able to get away with dancing in the backfield but he would get crushed in todays NFL unless he changed his game.

What part of "8 in the box" didn't you understand?  Barry had to dance!  Defenses forced Mitchell to beat them, and he could not do it.  He made a lot of bad decisions.  I fucking hated Mitchell, worst QB the Lions ever had!

[rustyhilger]

Nov 24, 2023 16:31:41 GMT -6 TechLion said:

Barry was the most entertaining football player of all time however the math says he actually did almost as much harm as he did good over a complete season. Football is a game of percentages and when a RB is held for no gain or caught in the backfield, it puts the offense in a low percentage situation of getting a first down. Barry got caught in the back field so many times that it resulted in far too many punts. Sure his big runs won a bunch of games and gave him unreal stats but his high amount of small gains and losses resulted in the Lions losing a bunch of games. I wouldn't trade the Barry experience for nothing but Scott Mitchel is 100% right.

One thing I've tried to explain to the uninitiated is this:

If you're a RB and you have a 100-yard game, that's good, right? 

Now let's assume that 100 of those yards were off one run. And the rest were zero yards or losses.

That's only 7 points those 100 yards were responsible for. So all the other team has to do is score 8 points and it's an big fat "L" for you.

Because football is not a sport that awards you additional points for performing a triple-lutz. That sport is figure skating. In football it's still just 7 points. The math does not reward for style.

[rustyhilger]

Nov 25, 2023 3:35:18 GMT -6 liongeezer said:

Scott Mitchell was DOG SHIT! Take out his 1995 year where he threw 32 TDs against 12 Ints, with 92.3 rating.   In the other 4 years; he Threw 47 TDs against 45 Ints, with 68.4 rating. The Lions paid Mitchell like a superstar.  Here is the kicker, defenses constantly stacked 8 in the box against Barry.  He would normally have to beat 1 to 2 unblocked tacklers on every play.  Mitchell could not take advantage of it even though he had Herman Moore (the best "contested catch" receiver ever).

And the offense hummed right along whenever Barry was injured, and improved dramatically the season after he retired; didn't they almost go the playoffs the following season with Charlie Batch and Ron Rivers of all people?

Truth be told, Barry was just a crack pot of a personality, and a conundrum no coaching staff could figure out how to use. Running-back-by-committee wasn't a thing back then. And regardless of how many defenders he faced, he was absolutely not a guy who could run North and South and simply beat a guy to the hole lunging forward, absorbing impact. This lead to situations where coaches would have to awkwardly use a fullback that didn't at all fit the play design, or inserting another guy in goal line situations. Which resulted in angry mobs of furious fans and media types screaming for the coach's heads: "Why are you taking the greatest RB of all time out at the goal line??? FIRE HIM!!"

Splitting carries in any way/shape/form would have been instant death sentence for any coaching staff. There was like a five-game stretch when Barry went down that the offense really started coming along and in to a rhythm. Herman Moore really exploding on to the scene. It was like the burdon of having to solve the puzzle of what the hell to do with Barry had been lifted, and they could execute a normal game plan.

That "normal game plan" being what we call modern football that doesn't center around having to feed a Running Back his requisite carries even if he's been completely shut out of the game plan.

Lions would always come out of the gates losing all their games, just to pull off epic comebacks the second half of the season. Because midway in to the season, the coaching staff would rip up the stupid "Feed the ball to Barry" game plan and start playing normal football. You know, the kind we play today, basically, where you just say "Oh yea, Running Back. How nice. Cool. We're taking you out for the next series or two but might need you later."

[Blaming Brad]

Nov 25, 2023 15:40:13 GMT -6 rustyhilger said:

There was like a five-game stretch when Barry went down that the offense really started coming along and in to a rhythm. Herman Moore really exploding on to the scene. It was like the burdon of having to solve the puzzle of what the hell to do with Barry had been lifted, and they could execute a normal game plan.

Herman Moore's best stretch BY FAR pretty much coincided with Barry's best career stretch ('94-'97).

[rustyhilger]

Nov 25, 2023 20:35:26 GMT -6 Blaming Brad said:

Nov 25, 2023 15:40:13 GMT -6 rustyhilger said:

There was like a five-game stretch when Barry went down that the offense really started coming along and in to a rhythm. Herman Moore really exploding on to the scene. It was like the burdon of having to solve the puzzle of what the hell to do with Barry had been lifted, and they could execute a normal game plan.

Herman Moore's best stretch BY FAR pretty much coincided with Barry's best career stretch ('94-'97).

You could say the Lions' best stretch coincided with Moore's.