Matthew and Robert are coming back

[Vic]

Dec 19, 2019 20:13:39 GMT -6 Blaming Brad said:

Dec 19, 2019 13:10:32 GMT -6 Felix said:

wtf are you talking about? The offense has been as good or better than ever...maybe add a rt, but other than that, the O looks good. Why would that need a rebuild?

Well, in Vic's defense I suppose you could argue this team has been in a rebuild for 60 years.

I appreciate the optimism here, afterall being a Lions fan we need to be optimistic by nature to stick with the clusterfuck franchise in hope of one season of future glory.

Point being here, Quinn is going into what his 5th offseasons now? The roster is 97% turned over from when he came here and looks like it need another somewhat of a drastic personell changeover to be competitive. Some will say all we need is "a few pieces", I dont see that. You dont win 3 games and just need a few pieces. A wildcard team needs a few pieces not this team.

This team shouldnt be in this position right now 5 years into a rebuild under a new GM. I warned years ago when Quillen got here the Lions were rebuilding while Stafford was in his prime and you fools scoffed at me. Here we are 5 years later somewhat is the same position as when Quinn got here and Stafford now has back fractures...

I just dont have the faith in this regime to get it right. Why wait another season just to have the same result? Quinn has had ample time to show results and has gone backwards last two seasons. He fires a 9-7 coach and the roster is getting worse not better.

These facts cannot be argued

[Felix]

Vic talking about FACTS but ignoring injuries? LOL...of course

Lions were very good on O before Stafford went down...there were some second half issues, but the D was even worse, so hard to tell...but youre right, O sucked, weird how you ignore a top 5-7 QB going down n this analysis...

And yes, a few pieces...Flowers started the season injured, so did Snacks, Hand has been hurt all season, so has Daniels...not sure why you dont see injuries as the main reason the DL has been aweful...They do need another DE for sure, but health is the biggest driver here, sorry bud...

DBs have been pretty good overall...its a little unfair to criticize them when there is no pressure from the front 7 and QBs have all day to throw...I would like a S and maybe a better #2 CB, but overall as a group the DBs are pretty decent

They LBs on the other hand are atrocious...Throw them all away as far as Im concernrd


So yes, a couple pieces....or are you saying Walker, Flowers, Snacks, Robinson, Okwara, Hand, Daniels, Melvin, Oruwariye, Coleman, Slay, etc should all be thrown away? Seems to me there are some solid pieces there, but sure Vic, rebuild, they all need to be thrown away...smh

[Blaming Brad]

Dec 17, 2019 17:20:58 GMT -6 Vic said:

I appreciate the optimism here, afterall being a Lions fan we need to be optimistic by nature to stick with the clusterfuck franchise in hope of one season of future glory.

Did you just call me optimistic when it comes to the Lions? That is certainly a first.

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying, but I also have no faith in this organization ever turning things around as long as it is under the current ownership. So given that I think I would rather just ride with the horses we got and hope we get lucky rather than hiring a whole new incompetent regime and start over YET AGAIN and be in the same position we are now in 3 years.

[Blaming Brad]

Dec 20, 2019 12:55:41 GMT -6 Felix said:

Vic talking about FACTS but ignoring injuries? LOL...of course

Lions were very good on O before Stafford went down...there were some second half issues, but the D was even worse, so hard to tell...

I actually thought the offense, while not as good, was still serviceable with Driskel and did enough to win games, but the D was so bad it wasn't enough. Driskel was better than the scrubs Pittsburgh has been marching out there but they have been competitive thanks to the D. Injuries really did kill the D. In a way it might have been a blessing because even healthy this team wasn't going anywhere but the injuries yield a much better draft pick (which I'm well aware they will botch).

[Blaming Brad]

Dec 20, 2019 12:55:41 GMT -6 Felix said:

So yes, a couple pieces....or are you saying Walker, Flowers, Snacks, Robinson, Okwara, Hand, Daniels, Melvin, Oruwariye, Coleman, Slay, etc should all be thrown away?

I do worry about Snacks. I love the player but I think he might be done. Robinson might be gone as well. I would also entertain offers for Slay as DBs have a tendency to fall off the cliff quickly after their 30th birthday. I'm also not ready to give up on Davis yet. I know he is frustrating as hell but he flashes and this defense needs that. If Patricia was such a good defensive coach he should be able to reign a guy like that in but maybe he just isn't a very good coach.

[badnews3123]

Dec 20, 2019 16:36:18 GMT -6 Blaming Brad said:

Dec 20, 2019 12:55:41 GMT -6 Felix said:

So yes, a couple pieces....or are you saying Walker, Flowers, Snacks, Robinson, Okwara, Hand, Daniels, Melvin, Oruwariye, Coleman, Slay, etc should all be thrown away?

I do worry about Snacks. I love the player but I think he might be done. Robinson might be gone as well. I would also entertain offers for Slay as DBs have a tendency to fall off the cliff quickly after their 30th birthday. I'm also not ready to give up on Davis yet. I know he is frustrating as hell but he flashes and this defense needs that. If Patricia was such a good defensive coach he should be able to reign a guy like that in but maybe he just isn't a very good coach.

Out of everyone you listed Davis is the guy you’re optimistic about? Interesting. He’s amazing athlete and everything you hear a great teammate and leader, but he makes Ernie Sims look instinctive. There’s only so much you can teach.

Slay has one year left and is still a top CB, what they ask him to do only a few other CB’s in the league do. If you didn’t like the D this year, just imagine it without a top CB. I thought he’d be gone after this year, but I’d be kind of surprised now with Patricia and Quinn’s feet to the fire. Also I’m not sure of this 30 year old cliff with CB’s. Sherman, Harris, Peterson, Haden, Gilmore are all guys older than Slay still playing at a high level.

Snacks only has one year. Ride it out and put some help next to him. He wasn’t the same guy, but he was far from a problem. He was also on the field more this year due to injuries.

I’d be fine with letting Robinson walk. Not worth paying and they need an interior guy with some flexibility and I’m sure they can find someone else on the roster to pick up dumb personal fouls and start fights during victory formation.

[TRUMP]

Needs on offense:
2 WR. Jones should be gone. And they have nothing after Golliday.
RT,RG (put Glasgow back at LG)

Defense:
DE ,need a legit threat.
DT need 2
LB need 1 Davis is garbage.
CB need 2, Slay is gone and other side is garbage
Saftey need 1

Bring back Patricia was right. If after another offseason of free agents and draft picks they can’t make the playoffs then fire both Patricia and quinn

[Blaming Brad]

Dec 20, 2019 21:29:14 GMT -6 badnews3123 said:

Out of everyone you listed Davis is the guy you’re optimistic about? Interesting. He’s amazing athlete and everything you hear a great teammate and leader, but he makes Ernie Sims look instinctive. There’s only so much you can teach.

Well, I wouldn't call it optimistic. It's more about his age, salary and potential to where it's not worth giving up on him yet.

[badnews3123]

Dec 21, 2019 13:00:31 GMT -6 Blaming Brad said:

Dec 20, 2019 21:29:14 GMT -6 badnews3123 said:

Out of everyone you listed Davis is the guy you’re optimistic about? Interesting. He’s amazing athlete and everything you hear a great teammate and leader, but he makes Ernie Sims look instinctive. There’s only so much you can teach.

Well, I wouldn't call it optimistic. It's more about his age, salary and potential to where it's not worth giving up on him yet.

I feel better about paying Slay 13.5 and Snacks 11.5 then Davis 3.5. The only thing he’s done well this season is blitz. And even then, how many times have you see him not finish and over run the QB?

He’s as physically gifted as you can get out of LB and I buy into the team leader thing, but he’s honestly severely hindering you when he’s out there and having to drop in coverage and he’s wildly inconsistent against the run.

[Blaming Brad]

I don't have a problem extending Slay as long as there's an easy out after 2 years. But if you can get a first rounder for him now I say take it. It's not like this team is going anywhere in the next 2 years.

[TechLion]

Lions have 3 wins and saved money last year and will only be 20th in the league in cap room. That is not a winning recipe! The culture with how the Lions allocate cap dollars needs to change! Injuries in the NFL are a guarantee! Building a well rounded team with depth and stop over paying players is the only way!



NFL salary cap is on the rise again, Lions projected to have $47 million available in 2020 offseason

Erik Schlitt
December 10, 2019 5:05 pm ET
The NFL salary cap is on the rise again and the Detroit Lions are projected to have close to $47 million available in the 2020 offseason.
According to NFL Network’s Ian Rappoport, the NFL is increasing the league salary cap in 2020 to somewhere between $197 and just over $201 million.

The Lions currently have roughly $168 million on the books in 2020, leaving them between $29 and $33 million available. But because of frugal spending this season, the Lions will be able to carry over another $18 million in cap room, giving them in the neighborhood of $47 to $51 million in available cap room — landing them around 20th in the NFL.
The top 10 biggest cap hits the Lions currently have in 2020 are:
Matthew Stafford — $31,500,000
Trey Flowers — $16,739,000
Darius Slay — $13,400,000
Rick Wagner — $11,900,000
Damon Harrison — $11,750,000
Taylor Decker — $10,350,000
Marvin Jones — $9,195,883
Justin Coleman — $9,029,000
Devon Kennard — $7,175,000
Jesse James — $5,279,000
If the Lions are looking to acquire more spending capital, there are at least four players on this list who have been rumored to be on the trade/cut block at different points over the last season. As players with high cap numbers, these rumors come with the territory, so take those rumors with a grain of salt.
Even without making a roster move the Lions are still in good shape entering the 2020 offseason.

[Felix]

50 mil....thats sounds like 2 top end players, 1 better than avg and fill out the bottom of the roster...a rt and some d players, sounds about right to me...not sure why this is a disaster?

[badnews3123]

Wait until Tech looks at some of those teams ahead of Lions in space FA’s and realizes how much they may have to spend before FA even starts. Few of them have big decisions to make on what will be very expensive QB’s.

[Vic]

Dec 23, 2019 8:49:06 GMT -6 TechLion said:

Lions have 3 wins and saved money last year and will only be 20th in the league in cap room. That is not a winning recipe! The culture with how the Lions allocate cap dollars needs to change! Injuries in the NFL are a guarantee! Building a well rounded team with depth and stop over paying players is the only way!



NFL salary cap is on the rise again, Lions projected to have $47 million available in 2020 offseason

Erik Schlitt
December 10, 2019 5:05 pm ET
The NFL salary cap is on the rise again and the Detroit Lions are projected to have close to $47 million available in the 2020 offseason.
According to NFL Network’s Ian Rappoport, the NFL is increasing the league salary cap in 2020 to somewhere between $197 and just over $201 million.

The Lions currently have roughly $168 million on the books in 2020, leaving them between $29 and $33 million available. But because of frugal spending this season, the Lions will be able to carry over another $18 million in cap room, giving them in the neighborhood of $47 to $51 million in available cap room — landing them around 20th in the NFL.
The top 10 biggest cap hits the Lions currently have in 2020 are:
Matthew Stafford — $31,500,000
Trey Flowers — $16,739,000
Darius Slay — $13,400,000
Rick Wagner — $11,900,000
Damon Harrison — $11,750,000
Taylor Decker — $10,350,000
Marvin Jones — $9,195,883
Justin Coleman — $9,029,000
Devon Kennard — $7,175,000
Jesse James — $5,279,000
If the Lions are looking to acquire more spending capital, there are at least four players on this list who have been rumored to be on the trade/cut block at different points over the last season. As players with high cap numbers, these rumors come with the territory, so take those rumors with a grain of salt.
Even without making a roster move the Lions are still in good shape entering the 2020 offseason.

20th and cap room coming into the season with the 3rd overall pic.

Certainly not enough cap space to fill all the voids on the roster. I have been reading about the all the cap room the Lions have, actually they are bottom third in the league in this area as well.

[badnews3123]

Dec 24, 2019 7:34:34 GMT -6 Vic said:

Dec 23, 2019 8:49:06 GMT -6 TechLion said:

Lions have 3 wins and saved money last year and will only be 20th in the league in cap room. That is not a winning recipe! The culture with how the Lions allocate cap dollars needs to change! Injuries in the NFL are a guarantee! Building a well rounded team with depth and stop over paying players is the only way!



NFL salary cap is on the rise again, Lions projected to have $47 million available in 2020 offseason

Erik Schlitt
December 10, 2019 5:05 pm ET
The NFL salary cap is on the rise again and the Detroit Lions are projected to have close to $47 million available in the 2020 offseason.
According to NFL Network’s Ian Rappoport, the NFL is increasing the league salary cap in 2020 to somewhere between $197 and just over $201 million.

The Lions currently have roughly $168 million on the books in 2020, leaving them between $29 and $33 million available. But because of frugal spending this season, the Lions will be able to carry over another $18 million in cap room, giving them in the neighborhood of $47 to $51 million in available cap room — landing them around 20th in the NFL.
The top 10 biggest cap hits the Lions currently have in 2020 are:
Matthew Stafford — $31,500,000
Trey Flowers — $16,739,000
Darius Slay — $13,400,000
Rick Wagner — $11,900,000
Damon Harrison — $11,750,000
Taylor Decker — $10,350,000
Marvin Jones — $9,195,883
Justin Coleman — $9,029,000
Devon Kennard — $7,175,000
Jesse James — $5,279,000
If the Lions are looking to acquire more spending capital, there are at least four players on this list who have been rumored to be on the trade/cut block at different points over the last season. As players with high cap numbers, these rumors come with the territory, so take those rumors with a grain of salt.
Even without making a roster move the Lions are still in good shape entering the 2020 offseason.

20th and cap room coming into the season with the 3rd overall pic.

Certainly not enough cap space to fill all the voids on the roster. I have been reading about the all the cap room the Lions have, actually they are bottom third in the league in this area as well.

You realize a lot of those teams ahead of the Lions are not going to stay at those numbers? A bunch of them have no viable QB signed through next season. I’d bet Lions end up being middle of the pack in cap space by the time FA starts.

This all ignores, money is not even close to being an issue. This isn’t like the previous CBA when half the league had cap issues. There’s usually like 2-3 teams that may have to do real moving of money.

[Vic]

Dec 24, 2019 8:07:01 GMT -6 badnews3123 said:

Dec 24, 2019 7:34:34 GMT -6 Vic said:

20th and cap room coming into the season with the 3rd overall pic.

Certainly not enough cap space to fill all the voids on the roster. I have been reading about the all the cap room the Lions have, actually they are bottom third in the league in this area as well.

You realize a lot of those teams ahead of the Lions are not going to stay at those numbers? A bunch of them have no viable QB signed through next season. I’d bet Lions end up being middle of the pack in cap space by the time FA starts.

This all ignores, money is not even close to being an issue. This isn’t like the previous CBA when half the league had cap issues. There’s usually like 2-3 teams that may have to do real moving of money.

When your a 3 win team with a roster that is underperforming in some key areas which lacks depth and cant stay healthy having the resources to rebuild in the only solution.

It boils down to two camps here:

#1 Lions are talented they just need a few players to compete

#2 it's a shit show and the roster needs a major overhaul

There really is no middle ground here. Yoi have some key players in a contract year. Moat of the FAs Quinn has brought in have eaten cap space and underperformed. A majority of the draft picks have not gotten it done.

I would say most of the fans here are optimistic by nature and are in the #1 camp even though they may try to take a middle ground. Afterall we are lions fans and optimistic by nature.

In reality I'd say quit pretending and why waste another season and blow it up now while you still have Stafford which is playing like a top 5 guy right now. He maybe has 5 years left and if you get the right GM in here you could have a chance to make a run. Right now after the last two seasons Quinntricia has been an epic failure and trying it for one more season is just a waste of valuable time. I think Stafford is a guy that can take you to the superbowl given he has the right team in place. I'd keep Bevell and Stafford and rebuild around them now. That's all we have to build on...defense is a complete joke! Where is Jim Schawartz at? I'd bring him back. At least he knows how to draft solid defensive players and build a competitive defense...lol

[TechLion]

The Lions need to reap the benefits of trading down. It is not a good strategy to stick with the #3 pick in the draft. Teams, especially the Lions are imperfect talent evaluators, so the more picks the better the odds of landing game changing type players. The risk vs the reward of having 2 later picks is better than a single early one. It is a better cap strategy and gives you get more top tier player starts for several years. Success in the NFL is all about cap management and that means making good cap decisions every year! What you guys don't seem to grasp is that, cap money needs to be used effectively every year. An occasional good cap year is not going to change anything!!!!!!!!!!!!

[badnews3123]

Dec 24, 2019 8:30:20 GMT -6 Vic said:

Dec 24, 2019 8:07:01 GMT -6 badnews3123 said:

You realize a lot of those teams ahead of the Lions are not going to stay at those numbers? A bunch of them have no viable QB signed through next season. I’d bet Lions end up being middle of the pack in cap space by the time FA starts.

This all ignores, money is not even close to being an issue. This isn’t like the previous CBA when half the league had cap issues. There’s usually like 2-3 teams that may have to do real moving of money.

When your a 3 win team with a roster that is underperforming in some key areas which lacks depth and cant stay healthy having the resources to rebuild in the only solution.

It boils down to two camps here:

#1 Lions are talented they just need a few players to compete

#2 it's a shit show and the roster needs a major overhaul

There really is no middle ground here. Yoi have some key players in a contract year. Moat of the FAs Quinn has brought in have eaten cap space and underperformed. A majority of the draft picks have not gotten it done.

I would say most of the fans here are optimistic by nature and are in the #1 camp even though they may try to take a middle ground. Afterall we are lions fans and optimistic by nature.

In reality I'd say quit pretending and why waste another season and blow it up now while you still have Stafford which is playing like a top 5 guy right now. He maybe has 5 years left and if you get the right GM in here you could have a chance to make a run. Right now after the last two seasons Quinntricia has been an epic failure and trying it for one more season is just a waste of valuable time. I think Stafford is a guy that can take you to the superbowl given he has the right team in place. I'd keep Bevell and Stafford and rebuild around them now. That's all we have to build on...defense is a complete joke! Where is Jim Schawartz at? I'd bring him back. At least he knows how to draft solid defensive players and build a competitive defense...lol

The roster doesn’t need a total overhaul. This complete overreaction.

[badnews3123]

Dec 24, 2019 9:30:05 GMT -6 TechLion said:

The Lions need to reap the benefits of trading down. It is not a good strategy to stick with the #3 pick in the draft. Teams, especially the Lions are imperfect talent evaluators, so the more picks the better the odds of landing game changing type players. The risk vs the reward of having 2 later picks is better than a single early one. It is a better cap strategy and gives you get more top tier player starts for several years. Success in the NFL is all about cap management and that means making good cap decisions every year! What you guys don't seem to grasp is that, cap money needs to be used effectively every year. An occasional good cap year is not going to change anything!!!!!!!!!!!!

This isn’t 2005 anymore. The difference between pick 3 and pick 10 is about 3 million dollars.

It amazes me people are trying to make the Lions issues a salary cap problem. Christ some of you are dumb.

[Deleted]

Darius Slay — $13,400,000
Marvin Jones — $9,195,883
Justin Coleman — $9,029,000
Devon Kennard — $7,175,000

These (4) might have cause to worry. Also Melvin, Robinson....

The DT play wasn't up to snuff...A lot of injuries... Rather than overreact Lions should bolster this position in Free Agency along with help on the edge. If the Redskins pass on Young for a hotshot WR....Lions could either trade down or take Young. I would Seriously look at trading down for more picks. Has to be a bunch of good picks though. Young will not put the Lions in the Playoffs by himself...Granted he is a Special Player, but So was Suh. Suh also did not take us to the promised land. Lions need Depth at Linebacker and DT. OL always needs attention, Even the RB position is kinda in flux...Kerryon has injury issues which I think leads the Lions to pick a RB pretty high in the draft.

[badnews3123]

Melvin and Robinson are free agents.

I thought Slay would be traded in the offseason, but now with Quinn and Patricia’s back against the wall, I don’t think so. Just don’t think they’ll get the value back to move on from one of the better CB’s in the league with their jobs on the line. They value coverage and Slay himself too much I think.

I don’t understand the Jones thing. He was on pace to be near a 1000 yards and double digit TD’s and had the highest catch % of his career. Look at what average WR’s are getting in FA, 9 is for what Jones was doing is good value.

Kennard will very likely be back. He’s pretty average, but he has some pass rush ability and Lions desperately need that. He’s also a valuable vet that seems like a leader.

It would actually cost the Lions more to cut Coleman. He’ll be on the roster next year and it makes no sense to move on. He struggled badly after a great start, but I’d like to think some schematic adjustments next year could help get him back to being one of the best slot CB’s in the league.

[TechLion]

Dec 24, 2019 9:37:16 GMT -6 badnews3123 said:

Dec 24, 2019 9:30:05 GMT -6 TechLion said:

The Lions need to reap the benefits of trading down. It is not a good strategy to stick with the #3 pick in the draft. Teams, especially the Lions are imperfect talent evaluators, so the more picks the better the odds of landing game changing type players. The risk vs the reward of having 2 later picks is better than a single early one. It is a better cap strategy and gives you get more top tier player starts for several years. Success in the NFL is all about cap management and that means making good cap decisions every year! What you guys don't seem to grasp is that, cap money needs to be used effectively every year. An occasional good cap year is not going to change anything!!!!!!!!!!!!

This isn’t 2005 anymore. The difference between pick 3 and pick 10 is about 3 million dollars.

It amazes me people are trying to make the Lions issues a salary cap problem. Christ some of you are dumb.

Why don't you look at how teams like the Patriots do it every single year!!! They win because of excellent cap management! You are nothing but a sheep that thinks the way the NFL wants you to think.

Here is my list of how to build a winning franchise.
1. Having one of the best grasps in the NFL on how to navigate the salary cap.
2. Don't make any major mistakes on players contracts. (Never pay players more than they are worth like Stafford)
3. Building through the draft. (trade down as much as possible and accumulate as many draft choices as possible in the first 4 to 5 rounds.)
4. Signing key young players to cap-friendly contract extensions. (Must let good players go, if they command too much money on the open market)
5. Use free agency to fill holes in the roster with all the money you save with good cap management.

[thedane]

They win because they have the best HC in the history of the game and one of the best QB's in the history of the game who doesn't command the money he would get w/o a wife who makes his salary moot. The rest of your points are valid.

[badnews3123]

Dec 27, 2019 9:37:57 GMT -6 thedane said:

They win because they have the best HC in the history of the game and one of the best QB's in the history of the game who doesn't command the money he would get w/o a wife who makes his salary moot.

Come on, don’t let silly things like that get in the way of a generic argument he’s making that no one is arguing against.

Cap management IS important. And the Lions cap situation is fine, the cap is in no way the issue with this team, but Tech just needs to keep making the argument that Stafford is the issue, so he’s grasping at all the straws he can and moving the goalposts all over.

[Blaming Brad]

Salary cap was a huge issue under Millen & Mayhew. Hasn’t been as much of an issue with Quinn - his biggest issues have been the draft and overpaying for free agents that had already peaked.

Stafford’s cap hit is comical at this point for what he has done but it’s not really an issue right now given the space available and the ever-increasing cap and the carry over they will have.